10 Comment(s)

1. The thought of an eternity surrounded by people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell and Teg Haggard sent shivers down my spine.

   Thanks God for Satan.

   Marcus | Jun 26, 2013 | Reply

2. Marcus,
   I just saw a litle 5 year girl with her heart cut out. She seemed to be tied to someting which kept her upright.Her lifeless little head was tipped awkwardly back and the grey cast to her face was as disturbing as the open wound in her chest . Who is to be blamed for that?
   Your remark is equally disturbing. Are you absolutely without conscience?
   Does the presence of a Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or a Ted Haggard warrent the outrageous response of yours which makes you more contemptible than they?
   I am amazed by your shamelessness.

   Gary Bovey | Oct 9, 2013 | Reply

3. Who is responsible for that? Whoever did it.

   And when such things are done, it’s often done in the name of religion.

   Does the presence of a Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or a Ted Haggard warrent the outrageous response of yours which makes you more contemptible than they?.

   Few people are as contemptible as they are.

   Dave Hitt | Oct 11, 2013 | Reply

4. Are you dismissing Henry Lee Lucas?
   Knowing the open contempt that Marcus felt free to exhibit, why should Henry Lucas be judged for “Not being nice?”
   Why should Hitler escape into eternity without consequence, when he didn’t do anything any more contemptible than Lucas? The only difference between the two is numbers.
   Are you saying we should be good for our own personal satisfaction?
   It can’t be because we might “Gripe someone off.”
   How can you even suggest that Robertson, Falwell, or Haggard are “Contemptible” when there is no such thing as good or evil, only events?
   Getting to the crux of the matter, you now appear somewhat of a “My mother drunk or sober” kind of guy. As long as she isn’t “Religious,” that is.
   The WatchTower seems to have left an indelible mark on you.
   Will you do to others what the WatchTower has done to you?
   How can you describe yourself as an “Atheist” in the same breath in which you make the staement you cannot know for certain if there is a God or not?
   I believe I saw that in one of your postings.

   Gary Bovey | Oct 16, 2013 | Reply

5. Dave,
   BTW, I enjoyed the Allman Brothers!

   Gary Bovey | Oct 16, 2013 | Reply

6. Are you dismissing Henry Lee Lucas?

   I hadn’t heard of him before, so I looked him up. He’s an evil guy.

   Why should Hitler escape into eternity without consequence, when he didn’t do anything any more contemptible than Lucas? The only difference between the two is numbers.

   Scale does matter.

   If the universe were fair, there would be a place of eternal torture for people like Lucus, Hitler, Falwell, and Mayor Bloombug. But it’s not, and there’s no evidence for such a place. Unfortunately.

   Are you saying we should be good for our own personal satisfaction?

   That’s one very good reason to be good. There are several others.

   It can’t be because we might “Gripe someone off.”

   If you do anything interesting, it’s going to annoy someone. That’s an unimportant consequence of doing anything.

   How can you even suggest that Robertson, Falwell, or Haggard are “Contemptible” when there is no such thing as good or evil, only events?

   I never said evil doesn’t exist.

   Events are judged by their consequences and the intent behind them. Those two things make a person good, evil, or somewhere in between.

   Getting to the crux of the matter, you now appear somewhat of a “My mother drunk or sober” kind of guy. As long as she isn’t “Religious,” that is.

   I have no idea what point you’re trying to make here. Please clarify.

   The WatchTower seems to have left an indelible mark on you.

   Everyone’s childhood leaves an indelible mark on them. Part of being a grownup is learning how to deal with it.

   Will you do to others what the WatchTower has done to you?

   Nope. Just the opposite, in fact. I help folks who have escaped, or are considering getting out.

   How can you describe yourself as an “Atheist” in the same breath in which you make the staement you cannot know for certain if there is a God or not?

   I’m what’s described as a strong atheist; I believe that god does not exist. But since the universe is so big, and it’s impossible to prove a negative, I can only be 99.99% sure of that. I have the same amount of “faith” that Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny and leprechauns aren’t real.

   BTW, I enjoyed the Allman Brothers!

   Then you are a fine human being with good musical taste.

   Dave Hitt | Oct 23, 2013 | Reply

7. Dave,

   You are still bound by WatchTower doctrine.
   Henry Lee Lucas, Otis O’tool, Hitler, and others like them are eternal beings, even as you are. The Watch Tower goes to great lengths to deny that, suggesting that when you are dead, you are dead, non-existent. They make some allowance for a “Memory bank,” such as what we experience with a computer that their Jehovah places the “Remembrance” of them in.
   You might agree that “Remembrance “ is not the same as having the actual person in attendance. It is a memory only, something to be reflected upon by another, not the actual person being in existence.
   In that sense, you continue in the same WatchTower doctrine you say you have escaped.
   I doubt you are sincere in your remark that you “Help” people who have escaped, because the evidence is you continue to deny God even as the labors of the WatchTower instructed you to do. You also encourage others to do so by sympathizing with them, while trumpeting your “Atheism.”
   You may view “Christians” with humor or even mild disdain, even think them foolish while entertaining them as friends, but you and I both know your heart is not with them.
   At best you may only be an agnostic, while stupidly insisting there is no God. I do not say stupidly to insult you. I am using it in the sense of your continuing purposely and willfully ignorant.
   If a man can not know everything, then he must be silent about those things he does not know. It is a continual state of confusion. “I know there is no God, but I am not 100% sure! You wind up arguing against your own premise should you choose to speak it or not.
   Stated more clearly, “There is no God,” but I just don’t know!
   There is no “Second Death,” but I just don’t know!
   There is an “Eternity,” but I don’t know the measure of it or how it shall play out?
   People certainly do not know how it shall relate to them, or may they?
   Even should we disregard all commandments, to ignore them, there is one that holds particular interest for me, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” It has a companion spoken by Jesus, “If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.”
   You are now in the world in the sense perhaps that Thomas Jefferson entertained himself at the end of his life, or Thomas Paine, and indeed, the WatchTower Society. It has everything to do with Jesus.
   It may surprise yourself and other readers here that there are literally hundreds, perhaps thousands of other Christs other than the Jesus who is said to be “The head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence .”
   Should one believe in the Jesus that never existed as some insist, or one who was supremely gifted, pure and sublime as Jefferson would warrant us to believe, or Paine may have been thoughtful concerning, the world would have him to be a man, either in conjecture (He never existed) or reality, but a man nonetheless only.
   That is WatchTower doctrine and it has been effective in its power over you. You are still held by the chains of the WatchTower and in fact have become a WatchTower ally, you just do not realize it.
   As I said earlier, under your worldview, there is no good or evil, just events. The same person who ruthlessly cut the heart out of that little 5 year old girl I spoke of earlier, could just as well visit you upon your door, go away with bloody hands and it would be just another incident. It would be neither good or evil, just an incident. Should someone take notice, that would be another incident, but have literally no meaning. However, there is something that stands in the way of all the foregoing.
   I am not meaning to be insulting. I do not desire to appear hostile, which every opportunity presents itself I may be thought of.
   That is not why I respond to your website and your comments.
   As far as your being a “My mother drunk or sober” kind of guy, it makes no difference. There is no right or wrong and you cannot even judge such a person.
   Why should such a person be judged, anyhow?

   Gary Bovey | Oct 29, 2013 | Reply

8. The only thing I took from the Watchtower organization was the ability to enjoy public speaking instead of being deathly afraid of it, as most people are.

   It would be nice to believe that we are eternal beings. It would be nice to know there was a hell for evil people. But I base my life on reality, and reality requires proof and proof requires evidence. There is not a shred of evidence that either of those beliefs have any base in reality.

   My certainty that there is no God, especially as defined in the Bible, is on par with my certainty that Santa and the Easter Bunny and Harry Potter are not real. If someone can show me solid evidence that any of them exist, I’ll have to change my mind. But it would have to be some very solid evidence.

   The question, “Did a man named Jesus ever exist?” is an interesting one, one I’ve spent a small bit of time looking into. The evidence for his existence is sparse. It’s an interesting question, but ultimately an unimportant one. If he did exist, he can’t be the son of a creature who doesn’t.

   Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

   I love the world. I love cigars and steaks and music and blowjobs and conversation and movies and novels and challenges of all sorts. An eternity devoid of those things doesn’t interest me. And the love of the mythical father is not in me. So I guess I’m doomed.

   As are we all. When we breathe our last breath, when the cells in our brains die, we cease to exist. If we’ve done well, we leave something good behind. If we’ve done poorly, we leave bad things behind. And if we live a simple and dull life, we leave nothing behind. Leaving something good behind is good enough for me. It has to be.

   I have stated, quite clearly, that evil does exist, that evil acts are not “just another incident.” And stomping it out is one of the good things we can do while we’re here. We’ll never be completely successful, only a god could do that, but no god has ever bothered to even try. Which means god is either powerless (in which case he’s useless), a complete dick, or he doesn’t exist. All evidence points to the latter. If anyone can prove he exists, then either of the first two options work.

   Me, I’m going with the evidence. If someone else wants base their concept of reality on the ignorant ramblings of goat-herders from thousands of years ago, that’s their choice. But I don’t think it’s the best one.

   Dave Hitt | Oct 29, 2013 | Reply

9. That’s good, to be able to speak publicly. You are correct, most people are deathly afraid of doing that.
   As far as your remarks go, let’s suggest as “Friends,” we might disagree. That is obvious we are in disagreement.
   I see by your comment that God in your view is a “Creature,” albeit one that does not exist. Even those who you would presume to be lacking in knowledge do not describe Him as such. Rather He is described as Creator, Framer, Maker, The Everlasting, and a host of other things you must be at least familiar with. Your experiences in the WatchTower would have informed you of some of these things.
   When I cited the “Loving not the world,” I had to take into consideration that inevitable questions could arise out of that, that don’t immediately come to mind. I have thought precisely about what the “Loving of the world” might be? Just what is it I am not supposed to be doing that would be “Loving the world?” It can’t be eating? Should we believe the Book (Not everyone does, I understand) it tells us every green herb shall be for our meat, and every living thing that moves shall be meat, so steaks are good as well the salads we have with them.
   As far as cigars, puff away. Moderation is all that we are encouraged in, not that there is any prohibition of a good smoke. But when does a good smoke become a bad smoke? I don’t smoke myself for personal reasons, certainly not as a habit. I do not tell anyone else they may not. It is really none of my business. I have had cigars myself. I might consider warnings against smoking as being valid. Most doctors are not ignorant goat herders so must have some degree of veracity, In the end however, it comes down to harm, does it exist for either ourselves or as against others?
   As I said, you are a very good example of the product of the WatchTower. You certainly exhibit the same air of arrogance of which I recall you judging others for. Ignorant Goatherds? Is that thought necessary of you to cause goatherds to be held in suspicion? Could they not be good or reliable men? Are they being thought not worthy to be listened to, that God should he exist might inform us by them? Why? Is it because they never held a phone in their hands, or saw a television set, flew in an airplane or drove a car? For this they are “Less worthy” of consideration, as you seem to suggest? Not all men said to have been used of God were goatherds by the way. You know that.
   You lived in the WatchTower, and I am one whose door folks such as yourself knocked on. Those days are for the most part, long past. I am on the list of persons to be avoided, contemptuously remarked upon as being a “Goat,” a breathing agent of the devil. They have moved on, filling out their service cards and reporting responsibly back to their superiors, they just don’t come by my home anymore.
   I realize that my opinion shall not carry any weight with you. I understand on the face of it, you could really just care less. But necessity being what it is, I disagree that God has not presented us with an alternative to the death all face and almost all deny, yourself being one of them. It is called the second death, and it is eternal and chosen by each who shall suffer it.
   I disagree that God is a “Dick,” does not exist, or is powerless. I am nearing seventy years of age and at one time had no reservation to saying the things that you say now, but no more. It has nothing to do with the nearing the end of my earthly life, I assure you.
   You say you are going with the evidence. I disagree with that too. You are going in the counsel of an uninformed heart. It is one of the reasons that sinners are completely unaware of their true state, they are dead even as they live, and as you must have shared on more than one occasion, “The dead know not anything.” That is a particular human observation, a fleshly observance. It certainly is not a spiritual condition. Recall it has been said, we are eternal beings. It is how we were created.
   You cannot help but not know God, because you do not and have never known Christ, were you consider the words as they are recorded. You are confined to an existence of outrage and contempt for the very one that created you in your mother’s womb, but not because of any injury He has done to you. Do you not recall that that God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike?
   It is not that you have not heard, you are not receiving the information. You cannot even consider it. Instead, you behave as much you can to offend, and are not content except you encourage someone else to entertain the darkness of your soul. By the way, the soul and the spirit are two different things.
   I watched some persons on a boat that was almost breached by a whale. Before he broke the surface, the water exhibited a continuous troubling froth, then shazamm, there he was in all his magnificence, a truly awesome creature. I spoke to my son about that and said Robert, even that great whale in all its considerable construction and great size, is not the more glorious than the most minute and infinitesimally small organism of extraordinary construction. They exist, but only capable of being viewed by electron microscope. Both are of those things we are informed are the handiwork of God. We are told to consider the ant. Is it not good then to consider all the wondrous works of God? How is it that the knowledge of morality exists in every man’s conscience from his earliest experiences? Because it was put there, it exists! The awful consequence of sin is that morality may be defamed and the Creator of it, and the conscience be destroyed.
   These creations are not accidents, Dave. They did not just spontaneously occur. Thomas Paine even acknowledged the “Works of the Almighty.” Paine said this same “Power,” may call us to account, the knowledge of whom exists independent of any book. That is not to say however, that a “Book” should never exist or caused to be written. Paine also said, “It is the fool only, and not the philosopher, or even the prudent man, that would live as if there were no God.”
   I told my children often that the first error is always fatal. The principle requires us to acknowledge that man cannot exist, or any living thing or anything for that matter, left to indiscriminate evolutionary acts. They have had to have been created, and that Creator is God. The chicken really did come before the egg because it is in the chicken only, all that the chicken may ever be or produce. The chicken is the product fully formed of the Creator, the repository of the blueprint that resides in the chicken alone, and in the egg the chicken produces.
   It is of little opportunity for you to be able to believe that. You have already decided that God does not exist, therefore should the chicken have been fully formed first or one was to be raised from the dead, each are equally outrageous to you, as the latter is to the WatchTower.

   Gary Bovey | Oct 30, 2013 | Reply

10. I want to comment briefly on Paine’s scepticism regarding the Bible or any other purported “Religious writing.” Job of whom we may only read of in the Bible is recorded as saying this:
    “I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.”
    We might confidently believe Job did not have a book to inform him as it is recorded he stated, “By the hearing of the ear.” That being said, it would be advisable we keep both our ears and our eyes open don’t you think?
    That is if Job even said such a thing? I don’t question it, believing it a true report of him.
    But that is me.
    I don’t own goats, btw.

    Gary Bovey | Oct 30, 2013 | Reply

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